Goblin Lands 2 Diplomatic Mission Week 23: The Trial of Gorkaog the Pit Mongrel

#81

The Herald listened, “Well, as you have admitted to the action I do agree that the need for an investigation is moot, however I do disagree with the need for a trial. As you say your people were attacked in a warzone. This was a battle in a war, a war between two nations. Why did you even bother to capture the ones you were transporting? Shouldn’t you have burned them for their actions in your war? What about future wars? Are you now declaring that in all wars against your Collective it is fine for your enemies to burn the bodies of your soldiers? After all, you are saying that in a war scenario it is alright to dispose of your enemies bodies in however way they see fit?”

#82

Oliver said, "No that is not what I am saying.
I am saying when prisoners are on their way to trial for War crimes people who try and break them out before justice can be decided should be put down.
They also granted final death to all my soldiers with their chimeras. So it was final death in response to the final death they inflicted on my band of brothers.
We had already fought this specific group of GulTor Uf once and didnt grant final death. Their response was to sneak up on us and ambush my men.

It is not how we usually wage war."

#83

“So, you are saying that if your people are captured in war, anyone who tries to break them out deserve final death? You are also abiding by the rule of eye for an eye? Final death for final death? Are you really the one who should be making these decisions? It is obvious that your actions were driven by your emotions. Will your anger dictate Der’al collective law?”

#84

Oliver looked around and said, "I also dont speak for the whole Der’al Collective.
I only speak for the Kolgul Militia.

If the Elogans dont like what I did it is their responsibility to relieve me of duty. Not a trials. A Military Tribunal where my commanding officers make those decisions.
I know my rights under military law. Military law the KGM follows is similar to the EEF. And the EEF grants final death to Itashi Slammers and Peacebringers all the time on the battlefield. Any enemy who will not surrender or continues an attack after being released is usually wiped out permanently."

#85

Oliver looked at the Herald and said, "Maybe as a Foreigner you have a solution to what to do with enemies who wont stop even when left to be resurrected by their mates?

It is also not like the Uhryus were being sent for execution. They were being sent for trial.
So the attack is further proof of GulTor Ufs guilt in attacking the Tor Lallur.
They knew they were criminals and didnt want their Uhryus cross examined."

#86

The Herald of Wintermute shook his head "I do not question the validity of their capture, it is a war, prisoners are taken in war. In fact probably the ones that attacked you should have been taken as well. Granting final death is something that is considered abhorrent in my land, such a waste. This event must be used as a way to learn for the future. Their actions perhaps were wrong, but that doesn’t make your actions correct. The guilty need to be punished, but by acting out of revenge outside the rule of law you have committed a crime as well. The accused admitted to committing the crime because he truly believed it was the right thing to do. You committed your crime because you truly believed it was the right thing to do.

As for what the EEF does against Itashi Slammers and Peacebringers, it matters not. You yourself said, that this is an Olgog trial, not an Earther one, what they do is irrelevant. If you want to follow Earther custom, perhaps the (The Herald makes quoting gestures with this fingers) Earther “god” should once again take over the trial."

#87

“Abhorrent…abhorrent…” Kolgol whispered to himself as if tasting the word.

He’d been present for some time now, but hadn’t seen fit to give his take on the situation, nor had it been asked for. But as they were moving onto a topic he had some opinion on, he spoke, addressing the Herald.

“Tell me Herald, have you been in a battle before? I’m not talking about a skirmish or a scuffle, I mean a full scale conflict, hundreds of enemies all around, constantly threatening your existence. In this sort of situation, morals are often set aside for the survival of the majority, and there is not always time to consider a drawn out consideration of alternate solutions to problems. Actions must be swift and decisive if one is to succeed, and few commanders have the sort of capability to exercise level thinking at a time like that.”

“While I don’t defend Oliver’s actions, I want to state that he shouldn’t have to put the preservation of a code of morals above the lives of those he commands. If he felt that he needed to grant final death to the enemy in order to keep his own men safe, he shouldn’t be put on trial to decide if he is a war criminal.”

He smiled secretively, and said,

“After all, doesn’t death imply finality? Why should an enemy that once raised a blade against you be allowed to rise again and again to continue his aggressions? What is life without death?”

#88

Babi came in to listen to Oliver defend the KGM actions to grant final death to the attackers. He nodded, Oliver wasn’t being unreasonable. The Gul Tor Uf could continue to hound them, it wasn’t hard to imagine a commander under attack deciding to make damn sure the attacks stopped. He stayed away from the actual trial itself. The looks on everyone’s faces told him enough about how it was going. Honestly the only good he could see coming from it was diplomatic talks between the DC and UTR.

He addressed Oliver and any other Der’al Collective membe, “Dis military law is foreign to da UTR. Its true we normally don’t allow final death.” He cocked his head. “Is dat da law of the Der’al Colelctive to grant final death to a foe that comes back to attack again after being killed, or when da foe uses weapons dat leave no way to bring back your own?”

Babi asked sincerely, he honestly didn’t know Der’al Colelctive laws and wanted to understand. He also wasn’t shocked or disgusted by Oliver’s actions.

#89

Oliver sat back in his chair. He finally understood why Gobbog had left the KGM.
They had been trained to look at stuff in an Earther way. The Tribals simply looked at stuff differently.

"I already said what I did is not Law. It is not any representation of the Collective law.

As for what the Collectives Laws say, they say nothing on the topic. They only deal with internal disputes not external disputes.
That is why I called this meeting so the UtR and DC could come together and figure out how criminals should be handled between us.

Taking the GulTor Uf who attacked us prisoner would have meant bringing them back to life. It was me and one other KGM soldier.

Are you really saying the two of us should have resurrected our enemies? Or should we have just let their adepts resurrect them after the fight to attack us again?" Last line directed firmly at the herald.

#90

Quill said, "If the GulTor Uf were so worried about final death they should not have attacked an armed caravan without a single ally of their own. This Rapi’og sounds like he had a deathwish.

Irrespective of law or lack of law I do feel we have been given a chance to create a social contract here.

If the UtR promises not to final death our gogs in uniform, I would put forth a resolution in the DC that the UtR soldiers be given equal respect and parts will be returned in case of DC UtR warfare.

Our friend representing the Ka Rhug brings up an excellent point.

Death is a finality that requires action to counter. If Oliver had buried the bits of the enemy tribals preventing resurrection would it even be a question of warcrime? As fire was used apparently that changes things?

When does GulTor Uf take responsibility for not keeping a part of their own soldiers for later?

I cannot help but find it funny that a culture who turns all dead bodies into Undead is judging us. You did leave that bit out didn’t you Herald? I can only assume you expected all the Gogs here to know that is what you mean by not wasting the bodies."

#91

Dolur says "Oliver actions against the attackers were ok. The attackers were granting final death to his soilders, and he needed to destroy them as quickly as possible to stop that. Sometimes attackers leave you no option. When I send a fireball at someone attacking me I’m not thinking I hope it doesn’t burn their whole body. I’m thinking they attacked and I need to survive. And fire might be my reaction.

GulTor’uf attacking first with final death opened their forces up to the same type of response. Also they were already dealing with Gogs resurrecting their enemy and prisoners. Causing more losses. I see no guilt with Olivers choice.

Do I personally wish he were able to put them down without it. Sure, but that is secocnd guessing a command decision while having the benefit of hidsight. It is not Fair. Commanders can only make their choices with the knowledge they have at the time. And the knowledge they have at the time is what you can only judge them on.

I will suggest a vote to the UtR Council gogs on the proposal you have given Quil. I’m sure UtR would prefer no side in a conflict gives final death."

As Dolur paused for a minute, his face turned angry for a second. Dolur continued. "On Rapi’og, From my tribes dealing with him, was a tratorist, impatient, and aggressive Olgog. In the past he personally went on a mission with many of the tribes here …only to betray them all… "

Then fear crosses Dolur’s face. He continues taking a few words to regain control of his voice and says "I’m Scared if what I’m hearing means he is dead. And been given final death. That will be bad for all. Very bad The Crystal may shatter! The results of Rapi’og’s true betrayal will come forth… "

Dolur clamps his mouth shut as he searches his pockets for something saying "Where’s that comm crystal? Where’s that comm crystal? I must tell Lalder. Is Lalder still alive… "

(OOC taking this first time to make my tribe (Or at least Dolur) realize that Rapi’og maybe dead. Dolur is going to freak out now :-p )

#92

Adept

Fury has been building; somehow evil is being rewarded again.

"MY TRIBE IS RESPONCIBLE FOR ALL EVIL IT SEEMS, UNJUST LAWS … ITS GULTOR’UF’S FAULT, GULTOR’UF’S MEMBERS ARE DEAD ITS GULTOR’UF’S FAULT, EVERYTHING IS GULTOR’UF’S FAULT IT SEEMS.

OUR ENCAMPMENT WAS TURNED TO GLASS, EVEN THE STUPID WOULD SEE THAT PEOPLE WERE TRYING TO FINAL DEATH US. WE TRY TO RESCUE OUR KIDNAPPED KIN, WE GET TO THE CART AND THEIR BODIES ARE BURNING. BUT THIS IS OUR FAULT? OUR LEADER TRIES TO RESCUE THEM, AND THEY ARE FINAL DEATHED?

WHY I WOULDN’T BE SURPRIZED IF YOU START CLAIMING WE ARE MAG Mmpft"

#93

Witch Gogkiller

Grabs adepts jaw and whispers so that only he can hear

“I will take care of this, you hush now”

#94

KalokLur

Sniffs out Quill, and speaks directly to him

Perhaps before you send in your army, I should go speak to this Elder. I have had much success talking to others

OOC: He has Negotiator for Red Furs: is a very effective communicator with other Red Fur tribes.

#95

“Well since any death is final for me and pretty much my entire crew what ever the council votes doesn’t really hold much bearing for us. Having said that I see no reason not to support it since it will make things better for everyone else.” Looking at the GulTor’Uf adept Urik audibly sighed.

“Actually yes it is your fault since instead of agreeing to the same compromise that every one else did you went against the wishes of the Der’al Collective, the United Tribes Of Refuge and attacked the Tor’allur pit with an artifact clearly designed to kill them permanently. So you escalated a disagreement rather than compromise, attacked first, mostly elders,cubs and mothers might I add not even soldiers and caused crippling injuries that can never be healed and final deaths first with a surprise attack in an act of undeclared war. So all of that being fact. If you can explain to me any way in which this entire situation is not your leaders fault. I’ll eat my grenade launcher.”

#96

Adept

If you are SO SURE that PLAGUING OTHERS IS RIGHT, THEN TAKE THE TORLALLUR TO YOUR NORTHERN BORDERS AND PLAGUE THEM. WE WILL THEN SEE IF THEY THINK IT IS A COMPROMISE.

#97

“See that right there is your problem. Seemingly your entire tribes problem. You don’t listen. You hear yourself talk and ignore everyone else. Maybe you can’t hear us over your own self righteousness. The agreement was no more plagues and more importantly no more lethal illnesses. And control of natural illnesses so they don’t become epidemics.” Urik shrugged.

“I grant you it isn’t perfect. But really what is? This allows the maximum number of people to live with the minimum of suffering. And personally I’d rather have a known group of vampyrs following rules we all know than unknown numbers of them running around in the shadows doing who knows what.”

#98

“Adept,” Scribe said as he pulled out a stack of papers, “These are the records of the meeting about the plague that caused such a problem in Karov. All the gathered representatives agreed that Tor’Lallur would help to strengthen the immunity of those that ask them, even creating hospitals to deal with local illness. The only reason your tribe did not agree is the Apprentice that was sent refused to work with those he believed to be forcing illness on others. As any who got sick would have sought them out, it looks to me that he had a deep hatred the was over looked before he was sent.”

#99

Babi nodded, “I agree to dis contract with one exception. Da Bruskti reserve the right to destroy any of our own who become blood sucking vampires.” Babi’s normally jovial manner was gone, “Dis is of da utmost importance in da Bruskti traditions and its da only point of contention.”

He hoped and assumed everyone would agree. It would pretty much be an internal matter for the families to handle themselves.

#100

The Herald listened as multiple people posed him various queries, “I have listened to your questions and I will answer then to the best of my ablities. As there are multiple questions I shall answer them one at a time, please bear with me as I go through them. Also if I neglect your question please politely bring that up as it would have been an oversight rather then being deliberate.”

Turning to Kolgol "First you, you asked if I had ever been in a battle, not just a skirmish, but a ‘real battle’. The answer is yes, the real question is have you? I marched with 30,000 soldiers to the Castle of the Sun, I witnessed as beams of light bigger then this building slammed down consuming hundreds with each blast. I marched upon the Devil city of Kasanth facing Nightmare hordes numbering in the millions. A sea of blackness that doesn’t end. Can you imagine it? A moving ocean of death flowing toward you, we were outnumbered, barely a few tens of thousand of us. We cleared the path for the larger Itashi forces. I have seen chemical weapons dropped upon my city, driving the inhabitants insane slaughtering each other in the streets. I know the chaos of battle better then most likely anyone here in this room. However this isn’t about the chaos of battle. I do not question that, I question the wonton destruction of bodies and helpless soldiers cradling their dead in their arms as people go through and burn them all to ash. Tell me, what chaos did Oliver face when he and his companion walked through the aftermath of the battle and burned the helpless?

As to your last statement about letting an enemy rise again to face you, surely then you agree with the Church of One burning Olgog bodies en mass. Surely they were simply guaranteeing that their enemies never come back to haunt them"

Turning to Oliver, “You transported the bodies of your prisoners without them being alive, you had plenty of allies around you, surely they would have been enough for you to transport some more bodies…after all, you had some extra room in your wagon now.”

Next addressing Quill "You say that if the tribe of Gul’tor’uf should have sent a weaker force to rescue their comrades to save them for later? He should have known that his people would have been burned when they lay helpless upon the ground? Is this such a standard practice that he should have known it would have happened? According to this conversation you are all having that is obviously false. He would have not known the soldiers would have acted with such wonton cruelty.

As for what you fine humorous that is up to you. Your lack of geographical, and political knowledge doesn’t interest me. If you don’t know anything about my country all one needs to do is ask. For example, any living citizen of Wintermute can request to have their body interred in a tomb where they will remain unraised. The only way they would be raised after that if during a state of emergency where the city’s future is in doubt. They know this fact, it is explained to every citizen. As for not wasting bodies, I assume you leave all of your dead alone? Is there anyone in this room that can claim that their tribe has never restored a comrade who died back to life? I doubt that."

Turning next to Dolur with a chuckle “When you throw a fireball at a dead body are you in mortal danger? Oliver claims that the enemies he was facing were either dead or not resisting when he burned them. Your entire comment is meaningless because it doesn’t apply to the situation. When one’s life is in danger you may use whatever methods you have at your disposal to survive, however when the battle is over and you are the only one standing, burning the bodies of the dead is quite evil. Unless you also agree with the Church of One’s policy to burn Olgog bodies to ash?”

The Herald looks to all “Your hatred of this Gul’tor’uf tribe causes you to justify seemingly everything. All I see are the strong destroying a weak tribe that they don’t agree with. Perhaps the Gul’tor’uf was indeed in the wrong, however as the ones with the power it is your responsibility to show a degree of restraint. Punish them sure, but to final death a small tribe because they lash out? You might as well paint some Crosses on your fur and “praise the lord” for giving you the strength to destroy your weak foe.”